Lord Rooker: My Lords, being a world leader will actually be good for business as well as meaning that are taking responsibility for looking after the planet. We will not be here in 100 years, but others will, and we have a responsibility if we know something is happening out there to do something about it. I would invite anyone who has not seen it to go and have a look at Al Gore's film, An Inconvenient Truth.
	There are assessments that say that the UK will get hotter, but one aspect of climate change could be the slowdown or possible stopping of the North Atlantic Ocean thermohaline circulation of the Gulf Stream. I assure my noble friend that that would not lead to us in the UK just worrying about cold winters; we would be a lot colder than we are now. In other words, the predictions go both ways. If climate change stopped the circulation in the Atlantic of the Gulf Stream, we would be in really serious trouble. The predictions are there, and the situation has been assessed by the scientists. It is not simply something that has happened in the past that comes around every few hundred years. There is enough evidence that human behaviour has changed what happens on the planet; therefore, we have to use human behaviour to try to rectify or take account of that.

Lord King of Bridgwater: My Lords, is not the danger of the Government's reply in referring to what the situation may be in 2100 the implication that things move quite slowly? Is not the proposal inMr Al Gore's film that things are actually moving very much faster than was previously thought? I think that the Minister said that the Government's position was based on assessments made at the 2001 Intergovernmental Gonference. Would it not be a good idea perhaps to update that, to make people aware that there is a real risk that things are moving very much faster than was previously thought?

Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, to the select few who remain, I hope to be forgiven if I remind your Lordships of something of the background to drinking banning orders and the basic objection in principle we have to them in the way they are expressed in the Bill.
	We recognise that there is a problem with excessive drinking in this country, particularly among young people. However, the drinking banning orders use the machinery of the ASBO. The ASBO is something we have objected to throughout. The drinking banning order is an application to the court—either a magistrates' court or a county court—by the police or a local authority to obtain an order against an individual whose conduct is disapproved of.
	The order imposes,
	"any prohibition on the subject which is necessary for the purpose of protecting other persons".
	A civil order is being obtained and therefore the rules that appertain to civil proceedings, in particular the procedures of the court, are not as stringent as they are where criminal charges are concerned. It is possible to obtain such an order entirely on hearsay evidence—the tittle-tattle of the neighbourhood, as it were. It is also possible to obtain that order not because the offensive behaviour is proved beyond reasonable doubt—the ordinary standard in a criminal case—but simply on a balance of probabilities that the behaviour complained of has been established more rather than less. If it is breached in any way, the drinking banning order can be followed by criminal proceedings in the ordinary sense. A breach of a banning order will result in a fine. If that fine is not paid, as sometimes will be the case with people with a drink problem, it can be followed by imprisonment.
	The amendment to which I speak seeks to put at least some curb upon the making of these orders. At the moment the orders can be made,
	"for the purpose of protecting other persons from criminal or disorderly conduct".
	We are all familiar—some may be more familiar than others—with the normal criminal charge of being drunk and disorderly, but this is "criminal or disorderly"; in other words, disorderly conduct which does not amount to a criminal offence can still provide the foundation for a drinking banning order. We therefore have a combination of things. It is not necessary for the police or the local authority seeking such an order to prove that the person against whom the order is to be made has committed a criminal offence but merely that he has been "disorderly", whatever that means.
	As I indicated earlier, the making of the order is just a step forward to the creation of a fresh criminal offence. If on a balance of probabilities and on hearsay evidence a person, because of his disorderly behaviour, which is not a criminal offence, is made subject to a drinking banning order, he can end up being charged with a crime of breaching the order. He gains a criminal record for conduct that is not criminal at all. By definition within the Bill as it is currently drafted, he is guilty of a criminal offence for breaching an order relating to simply disorderly but non-criminal conduct. That is the point that I make in Amendment No. 1. The same point is made in relation to Amendments Nos. 5, 7 and 15, where the same disjunctive concepts of criminal or disorderly conduct appear.
	We think that it is entirely wrong in principle first to use such a vague term as "disorderly" and, secondly, since it is almost by definition not criminal conduct, to enter into a procedure which can result in a criminal conviction. I hope that is a sufficient explanation. I beg to move.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, at this stage the House might have expected to have heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, but since she has not moved Amendment No. 6, it is me again.
	This is the "name and shame" part of the Bill. The idea is not simply to make an order, but to publicise it in the press and, I presume, by photographs and posters, if necessary. That may be appropriate for an adult, but we do not think it is appropriate for juveniles.
	I have already referred to the Children and Young Persons Act 1933. In that Act, significant restrictions were placed on the report of proceedings in which children and young people were concerned. Your Lordships will be aware that even in the most serious cases, the identity of young people was protected both at charge and after conviction. Only with charges such as murder or rape does the judge permit the identity of a person under 18 to be disclosed to the press. That being the case, why do we have the change in the Bill?
	I was looking to see what was said about publicity in 1932, when the Children and Young Persons Act passed through the House. I could not find the precise passage where it was discussed, but to give your Lordships some idea of the position at the time, the Act abolished the whipping of young people. That received a certain amount of opposition in your Lordships' House. My noble friend the Earl of Glasgow's forbear, the then Earl of Glasgow said:
	"whipping would be a better thing for a boy than being sent to prison. I am quite sure that the noble Viscount"—
	that is Philip Snowden, for the benefit of Members opposite—
	"himself would never have reached the high position he has reached in the estimation of his countrymen if it had not been for castigation in his youth. What is there against whipping? They say that it has a hardening effect, but when I look round your Lordships' House—and I doubt that that there is any one of your Lordships who has not been whipped at some time of his life—I see no sign of that hardening process among your Lordships".—[Official Report, 26/5/32; col. 486.]
	I think I can say the same thing today.
	That was the climate in 1932 and in that climate it was decided that it was inappropriate for young people to be subject to publicity and to have their names and identities known. In discussion of that Bill, their Lordships were concerned to reform young people rather than to punish them. Juvenile courts came into being and the procedures were altered to deal with them. The lack of publicity was an important part of it all.
	This is really red-top newspaper stuff—to publicise young people who are perhaps guilty of disorderly conduct; having their photographs put up in the local pubs or published in the newspaper. Will that reform them? Will it make them better people? Will they be less likely to offend in future? I very much doubt it. I think that the effect of publicity of that sort could be twofold. It could be seen as turning the individual into a local media personality, so that he can bask in the glow of the publicity. Alternatively, it could be seen to be something that damages his future education and career. Whichever it may be, it is wholly undesirable. I respectfully urge on your Lordships that it is appropriate to remove the naming and shaming provisions from the Bill, both on the making of the order—or rather, on conviction following criminal proceedings—and in any other respect. I beg to move.

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, we had a similar debate only last week in your Lordships' House when we discussed the Police and Justice Bill. We did not have the benefit of the historical discourse given by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, which I am sure we all found enlivening and, in its way, entertaining. I am tempted to talk about whipping, although perhaps it is inappropriate. In any case, I got the message from the noble Lord's story to us all.
	The amendment seeks to re-impose automatic reporting restrictions, in the terms set out by the noble Lord, in proceedings for an order on conviction involving young people and where there is a breach of an order by a young person. As I said, we debated this last week and on several other occasions, and we on the government Benches take a very different view. In the past, I sought to explain that we are not creating a situation in which all cases would be automatically reported. Although we are reversing the presumption, we are not preventing the courts imposing reporting restrictions where appropriate. It is for the courts to make that judgment. The important point here is that communities that become involved in laying the ground for a form of social action, of which that drinking banning orders are part, need to be able to see and to understand that action is being taken on their behalf against behaviour that can blight whole neighbourhoods. In addition, we argue that the effectiveness of a drinking banning order and the ability to enforce it will frequently depend on people knowing about the order and its terms.
	The noble Lord talked about individuals becoming local anti-heroes and media personalities in their neighbourhood. I doubt that that is likely; it has certainly not occurred greatly where I live as a result of anti-social behaviour orders. The publicity surrounding those orders has, in most instances that I can judge, been beneficial, because people have felt that at last the courts are doing something that represents their side of the argument. Of course it is possible that the knowledge distributed about someone's behaviour may make them reflect more on that behaviour, which in itself is no bad thing. It may well make young people think of the possible longer-term consequences for their employability and for their set of friendships and social relations.
	Anti-social behaviour orders have certainly had some value. A test case in the London borough of Brent—R (on application of Stanley, Marshall and Kelly) v the Metropolitan Police Commissioner—upheld the principle that publicity is necessary to help to enforce an order. It recognised that, by informing local people of the prohibitions imposed by the order, they could identify and report breaches to the police. We recognise, however, that any publicity must be necessary and proportionate to the identified aims and impact of the order. In some circumstances, particularly where publicans and local people need to know and understand to whom an order applies, there will be value in publicity.
	I come back to the point that we do not want to undermine the effectiveness of drinking banning orders by accepting the amendments. Accepting them would have an adverse impact on our policy objectives. The noble Lord takes a different view, to which he is entitled, but I urge him to reconsider his position for the sake of the effectiveness and completeness of the policy that we are working through in the legislation and to withdraw his amendment. I cannot see that those amendments have merit. Where courts think that it would be inappropriate, they are of course entitled to take the view that publicity given to drinking banning orders for young people is wrong, inappropriate or unnecessary, and are at liberty to follow their own judgments.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 19, 20, 21 and 28.
	Amendment No. 17 would add a test of reasonableness into the provisions that would empower local authorities to impose extra charges on licensed businesses that fall within an alcohol disorder zone. The drafting in Clause 12 regarding alcohol disorder zones contains a fundamental flaw, as there is nothing in the scheme in its current form to prevent a local authority imposing blanket charges on licensed premises and clubs in an alcohol disorder zone regardless of the degree to which the premises contribute to the disorder. In our view, that is far too arbitrary, and is potentially extremely unfair to those businesses that, for example, close well before the usual times when alcohol-fuelled disorder may take place. The amendment we propose would impose a requirement on the local authority that it must be satisfied it is reasonable to impose charges on particular clubs or people. This provides a safeguard for individual businesses that are entirely innocent of contributing to or causing alcohol-related crime.
	In Committee the Minister objected to this on the basis that we would be placing an undue burden on the local authority. We disagree. Although of course we acknowledge that establishing a causative link between individuals misbehaving due to excessive drink and specific licensed premises might not be straightforward, it is not unduly problematic, and we have sought to reduce the burden on the local authority by setting the test as one of reasonableness. A test is entirely straightforward and sensible.
	The issue is essentially one of fairness. Why should a corner shop or convenience store that closes at six o'clock in the evening pay for the late-night problems caused by a few irresponsible licence holders? We on these Benches acknowledge that some licensed premises encourage irresponsible drinking; for example, by free-drink promotions and so-called happy hours, and by serving individuals who are already drunk. There are a few—not many, one hopes, and reducing in numbers. It is entirely reasonable that such irresponsible establishments should be penalised. The main concern of the bodies representing the licensed trade is that there should be a link between paying any charge and being responsible for the alcohol-fuelled trouble, and that is what my amendment seeks to address.
	The Minister's response to the debate in Committee gave more cause for concern. He stated that he thought it would be,
	"reasonable to assume that all premises inside an alcohol disorder zone must be contributing in some way to the problem".—[Official Report, 26/4/06; col. 232.]
	We simply cannot agree to that broad assumption. It means that even those premises that conduct themselves impeccably could be caught by the penalty of a charge, and that would be a disproportionate way for the Government to behave.
	I noticed that later, on a different day in Committee, the Minister appeared to take a different tack. I tabled an amendment to probe how the Government would expect the boundaries of ADZs to be drawn and clearly identified. In response, the Minister gave an example that looked similar to the one he had given on 26 April, but which could lead to a significant and far more helpful interpretation of the way charges would be imposed. He said:
	"We want to see an ADZ drawn very tightly around the area where it is reasonable to assume that the licensed premises within that designated area have a definite and proven link to the levels of crime and disorder within the locality".—[Official Report, 17/5/06; cols. 299-300.]
	If that second reply is the correct interpretation of the Government's intention in bringing forward these measures, we would certainly be on the same wavelength. The problem is that the Bill does not make that causal link clear in its terminology.
	I shall move on to what is effectively the second set of amendments in the group; I proposed that I should take this large group together, because, as I said in opening this afternoon, it is one of the areas where significant progress has been made in discussions with the Government over the summer. It was therefore very much the wish of the British Retail Consortium and the Wine and Spirit Trade Association that I should put on record in full our concerns, and then enable the Government to give what we hope may be a satisfactory response.
	The effect of the remainder of the amendments in this group would be to ensure that the two types of licensed premises set out in Clause 15(6)(a) and (b) would be exempt from any charges imposed by virtue of the clause. The first type would be those premises whose principle use did not involve the sale of alcohol, and the second would be those premises where the availability of alcohol is not the main purpose for which individuals enter them. The Minister gave an assurance in Committee, at col. 236 on 26 April, that the exemptions in Clause 15(6) would be included in regulations. I said that I would consult the British Retail Consortium and the Wine and Spirit Trade Association to see whether that was sufficient to satisfy them. I met them during the Summer Recess. They reported that they remained concerned that the Government had not put clearly on record their intentions regarding, first, exemptions; secondly, how the charges would be applied to businesses of different sizes, hours of opening and management practice; and thirdly, discounts, and whether in any circumstances a business might receive a 100 per cent discount where it had behaved appropriately.
	Since we debated this matter in Committee, I have also been contacted by the public affairs manager of Boots plc. He states that Boots is very concerned that the decision on ADZs will be left to regulation. He makes the understandable point that companies such as Boots need clarification that they will be exempt. Will the Minister say today whether the Government's view is that Boots, and companies that operate in a like manner, will be exempt from charges?
	Like me, noble Lords may be a little surprised that Boots considered that it might come within the rules governing ADZs. But it was pointed out to me that there is some sale of alcoholic beverages as part of gift sets, particularly in the five months running up to Christmas. We are in that period now and I saw such sets on the shelves in my local Boots last week. For the rest of the year Boots does not sell alcohol. Alcohol sales equate to just 0.1 per cent of Boots's turnover per annum, but it already pays more for licences than purely alcohol-based retailers, such as small off-licences, due to the fact that the cost of the licence is based not on how much alcohol you sell but on the size of the licensed area. As Mr Sheppard, representing Boots, points out, that is taken to be the whole of the Boots store. I understand that Boots has about 400 stores with licences. Obviously, it is important to know whether the Government intend that businesses such as Boots should be caught up in the ADZ charging system.
	I have covered the matter in detail as I hope that the Minister's response will be such that we may not need to return to the matter at Third Reading. I await that response with anticipation. I beg to move.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, referred to her fears, which we share, that the ADZ scheme would be seen as a way of raising extra revenue. When the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, replied to a similar amendment on26 April he said:
	"The charge needs to be set at a meaningful level which is sufficient to recoup local agencies' costs in mounting effective enforcement interventions based on what is required to properly reduce crime and disorder in any given locality".
	In other words, local businesses would pay for the security firms and for extra policeman possibly—although that is unlikely—to patrol the particular area. That was a matter which concerned us. I tabled an amendment in Committee, suggesting that there should be a cap on the compulsory charge which would be the equivalent of 3 per cent of the premises' annual rateable value. That was a fairly arbitrary figure but it provided a mechanism which could differentiate between different sizes of businesses. However, things have moved on and the Minister has given us foresight of the regulations, but not the regulations themselves, of course. I understand that there will be a national charging scheme with differential charges—there will not be a flat rate—and there will, of course, be discounts, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, referred a moment ago.
	In Amendment No. 18, all I am now seeking is that the regulations that we are promised should not impose an artificial cap, but should take into account the words of the Minister in Committee when he said:
	"The important thing is that we get the principles right, that it does not act as a disincentive, and that it acts as an encouragement to get collective action at work".—[Official Report, 26/4/06; col. 207.]
	I have used those words in my amendment, which, as your Lordships will see, suggests that the regulations,
	"must require a local authority to ensure that the level of charges which they impose acts as an encouragement to local action and not as a hindrance to the viability of local businesses".
	I recognise that that is a great deal vaguer than the3 per cent which I proposed in Committee. I believe that the local authority must have in mind at all times that this is not a revenue-raising situation which can continue indefinitely, but that it is designed to deal with a specific problem, over a specific period—another matter to which we shall turn shortly—and that there should be a time limit on the imposition of these zones. I am not asking for a great deal and I hope to achieve some success on this occasion. I beg to move.

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, Clause 16(1) sets out the criteria for the designation of an alcohol disorder zone: first, a general test based around nuisance, annoyance and disorder in or near the locality; secondly, a link to the consumption of alcohol; and thirdly, a likelihood of repetition.
	The noble Lord's amendments focus around the first criterion and seek to add a further restrictive limb. They add a qualification that the public nuisance would have to be "persistent and repeated", remove the terms "disorder" and "or near" from the first limb of the test and add a further limb placing an explicit requirement that full use of the Licensing Act 2003 had been made.
	In response to his point about persistent and repeated, I have made clear that alcohol disorder zones are an intervention of last resort, and we want to signal that. On the other hand, we want to ensure that the power can be used with a degree of flexibility. The Bill provides the overall framework. Clause 19 provides for guidance to be issued on the administration of ADZs, Clause 19(2) places a duty on the Secretary of State to ensure that the guidance sets out what alternative steps should be considered prior to proposing an ADZ and Clause 19(4) places a duty on local authorities to have regard to the guidance. The guidance will set out clearly the alternative interventions to deal with alcohol-related crime and disorder, including tackling incidents that are not persistent.
	So we do not need the reference to "persistent and repeated" that the amendment would provide. I can also give an assurance that the guidance will emphasise that and specifically refer to full use of the Licensing Act 2003 before designating an alcohol disorders zone. That takes account of the concern at the heart of one of the noble Lord's amendments.
	On the removal of the term "disorder", it would not be wise to lose the link between disorder and anti-social behaviour and alcohol. We need to tackle those behaviours, which have a significant impact on our communities. We want that in the Bill.
	Finally, turning to the removal of the term "or near" from the criteria, I certainly understand what the noble Lord says. As I recall, we had an interesting debate on that point in Committee. As I understand it, the noble Lord is concerned that problems occurring away from the immediate vicinity of licensed premises should be attributed to them and that they end up having to pay for services to tackle that problem.
	It is important to draw a distinction between local authorities making the case for an ADZ, how the ADZ will be drawn and what services the compulsory charge will cover. On making the case, it is important that some account is taken of the impact of alcohol-related crime and disorder in the area near the concentration of licensed premises. To give an example, residents in a nearby street may be disturbed by rowdy drunks leaving the premises, or there may be pinch points at a nearby taxi rank. All of that is alcohol-related and associated with patronage of the premises.
	Of course, the voluntary action plan may include preventive steps to tackle those problems—perhaps contributions towards a taxi marshal. On designation of the ADZ, the zone will be tightly drawn around the premises concerned and the compulsory charge will cover enforcement activity directly affecting the premises. The charge will not cover supervision of a taxi rank or the patrolling of streets outside what we envisage as being a tightly drawn area.
	I hope that having given those assurances, the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, with permission, I shall repeat a Statement on political progress in Northern Ireland made earlier today in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. The Statement is as follows:
	"Between 11 and 13 October in St Andrews, both the British and Irish Governments engaged intensively late into the night and from early morning with the Northern Ireland political parties. That we were able to defy the sceptics and cynics and secure the St Andrews agreement opens the way to a new dawn for democracy in Northern Ireland—a new democracy based, for the very first time in Northern Ireland's tangled history, on the twin foundations of the rule of law and power sharing. Without question, it may come to be seen as a pivotal moment in Irish history."These two foundations stand together or fall together: on the one hand, unequivocal support for the police and unequivocal support for the rule of law; on the other, an absolute commitment by all the parties to share power in a restored Northern Ireland Executive. Delivery on both these foundations was absent from the Good Friday agreement; now it is in prospect. That is a measure of what was achieved at St Andrews—arguably the fulfilment of the hopes expressed on Good Friday eight years ago. The agreement has been placed in the Library and is available in the Vote Office."All the parties at St Andrews were crystal clear on one point at least: that in May Parliament had legislated for closure, one way or another, on the political process. Four years since the Executive and Assembly last sat, there has been set in statute a clear endpoint of 24 November by which the political parties would agree to locally accountable government for the people they represent, bringing direct rule to an end. The alternative, as I have made clear, is that the Assembly would dissolve. Incidentally, were the parties to unravel St Andrews at any stage in the coming weeks and months, dissolution would follow as night follows day, and both Governments would move on to formulate plan B. There is not a choice between St Andrews and something else; there is only a choice between St Andrews and dissolution."Since the House set the 24 November deadline in statute, there have been important indicators that the context within which the political development can take place has been changing—changing fundamentally, changing for the better and, I personally believe, changing for good."Northern Ireland had the best parading season for four decades with not a soldier on the streets on 12 July, something unthinkable just a year ago when 115 live rounds were fired by loyalist paramilitaries at police and soldiers during the Whiterock parade. This year, Whiterock passed off peacefully following a cross-community dialogue. Loyalist leaders have given me assurances, as the IRA has done, that they will now work to ensure an end to their paramilitarism and criminality."Last week for the first time ever, the leader of the Democratic Unionist Party, the right honourable Member for North Antrim, met the Catholic Primate of Ireland, Archbishop Brady".
	I can say to those noble Lords who are following the text of this Statement that the Secretary of State then went on to congratulate the right honourable Member for North Antrim and the noble Baroness, Lady Paisley of St George's, on their 50th wedding anniversary last Friday. The Statement continues:
	"Over the summer, the Committee on the Preparation for Government, with all the parties face to face in the room, did important and constructive work on a range of issues central to the good governance of Northern Ireland. Above all, there has been further compelling evidence that IRA violence has indeed ended, a judgment confirmed decisively on 4 October in the report of the Independent Monitoring Commission, which also confirmed in paragraph 2.17:
	'The leadership has maintained a firm stance against the involvement of members in criminality, although this does not mean that criminal activity by all members has stopped. The leadership's stance has included public statements and internal directions; investigating incidents of breach of the policy; the expulsion of some members; and emphasising the importance of ensuring that business affairs are conducted in a legitimate manner'.
	"The Government firmly believe that the circumstances are now right to see a permanent political settlement in Northern Ireland, with the restoration and the full and effective operation of the political institutions. Anyone with experience of the political process in Northern Ireland will know that it is never easy, that the negotiations are always tortuous and tough and that there is always a danger of things unravelling. St Andrews, like Good Friday, is no exception. But the harder the negotiations, the more likely it is that any agreement that comes out of them will stick."There were two main issues to be resolved at St Andrews if we were to achieve restoration of the power-sharing Executive: the need for support for policing and the rule of law across the whole community, which would enable, in due course,the safe devolution of policing and justice to the Assembly; and changes to the operation of the Good Friday agreement institutions."On support for policing, I want to spell out to the House what that means by quoting from Paragraph 6 of the St Andrews agreement. It means, 'endorsing fully the Police Service of Northern Ireland'; it means,'actively encouraging everyone in the community to co-operate fully with the PSNI in tackling crime in all areas';it means playing a full and active role in,'all the policing and justice institutions, including the Policing Board'."For many years now, all in this House have joined the Government in demanding support for the Police Service of Northern Ireland from every part of the community. My honourable friend the Member for Foyle and his SDLP colleagues—John Hume especially—have shown courageous leadership in making that a reality. With one in five—rising to one in three—of Police Service of Northern Ireland officers now Catholics, and the service deploying with local consent right across Northern Ireland, including South Armagh, policing has been transformed."But no one here will now underestimate how significant it will be if the republican movement can accept and endorse the agreement drawn up at St Andrews. Based on last week's discussions, I am confident that it will do so and that this will make for a decisive and irrevocable break from a past of violence and criminality. It will give absolute confidence in an authentically new Northern Ireland of hope and peace and the rule of law."I believe that when this active support for policing and criminal justice is seen to be delivered, there will be sufficient community confidence for the Assembly, in line with the St Andrews agreement, to request the devolution of justice and policing from the British Government by May 2008. It is very important to acknowledge, however, that devolution of policing is already very substantially down the road. Following the Patten report, direct-rule Ministers relinquished matters of real importance. The Police Service of Northern Ireland has been accountable for five years to the Policing Board, comprising, as it does, locally elected and independent representatives; it has been accountable to the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland and to the district policing partnerships. The remaining devolution of policing and justice is largely institutional, focusing more on the courts and the administration of justice than on operational policing, which in the past has been so controversial to nationalist and republican communities. "Although nationalists and republicans had major concerns over the primacy of national security being vested in the Security Service,St Andrews makes clear in Annexe E that there is full accountability for all domestic operational security matters because these will be exclusively undertaken not by MI5 but by the Police Service of Northern Ireland, which is of course itself fully accountable in Northern Ireland, including those of its officers who may be secondees to MI5. We stand ready, moreover, to develop procedures and to establish protocols on MI5's activities to provide any reassurances necessary on accountability."Taking Northern Ireland out of a divided past and into a shared future can be done only on the basis of agreement on fundamental principles:the principle of consent; the commitment to exclusively peaceful and democratic means; sharing power within a stable inclusive partnership Government; equality and human rights for all; and mutually beneficial relationships developed between north and south within these islands. Those are the fundamental principles of the Good Friday agreement and they will always remain the bedrock and foundation of the political settlement in Northern Ireland. "The Good Friday agreement, however, allowed for changes to be made to the operation of the institutions to make them more responsive and effective and, following discussion with all the parties, we have made an assessment of these in Annexe A to the St Andrews agreement. The Government will introduce legislation to enact appropriate changes and other aspects of theSt Andrews agreement before the statutory November deadline, once the parties have formally endorsed the terms of the agreement and agreed on that basis to restore the power-sharing institutions."We have now set out a clear timetable for restoration. Tomorrow, a new programme for government committee will begin regular meetings at Stormont to agree priorities for the new Executive. Crucially, parties will for the first time together be represented at leadership level on that committee, as on the existing Committee on the Preparation for Government."We have asked the parties to consult onthe St Andrews agreement and to respond by10 November to allow time for final drafting of a Bill to take through Parliament. Once this happens, and on the basis that the St Andrews agreement is endorsed, the Assembly will meet to nominate the First Minister and Deputy First Minister on24 November, the deadline for a deal. "I do not have to spell out to the House the great significance of these nominations, the more so given those who are likely to be nominated:the leader of the Democratic Unionist Party and the deputy leader of Sinn Fein. I pay tribute to the right honourable Member for North Antrim. Like anyone who understands something of the history of Northern Ireland, I realise that this is not an easy step for him or for his party. "In January, there will be a report from the Independent Monitoring Commission. In March, the electorate will have the opportunity to endorse the St Andrews agreement, either through an election in Northern Ireland or through a referendum. We will listen to the views of all parties before making a decision on the most appropriate way of consulting the electorate and legislating accordingly. Either way, the people will speak. On 14 March, prospective members of the Executive will be named by their party leaders. On 26 March, power will be devolved and the d'Hondt formula will be run. "This is an ambitious programme and there is still much work to be done. But I do not think that Northern Ireland has been at this point before. It is a tribute to my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, the Taoiseach and the British and Irish officials who have worked tirelessly over so many years that we are at this point. Their energy, time and patient attention to the detail of the issue have been unprecedented. But, above all, it is a tribute to all the political parties in Northern Ireland—all of them—which have shown courage and leadership and have taken risks for peace and political progress. They have shown that therecan be accommodation and agreement without sacrificing principle or integrity. "Friday 13 October was a good day for Northern Ireland. It has the potential to be greater still, to be the foundation stone of a new Northern Ireland, based exclusively on the principles of peace, justice, democracy and equality. Whatever difficulties lie ahead, I trust that none of those who took part in the talks last week will lose sight of that great prize".
	My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I am most grateful, as indeed everyone will be, for the warm welcome the Statement has received from the noble Lords, Lord Glentoran and Lord Smith of Clifton. I understand their caveats—I would not even call them caveats, really; they were asides. When it comes to answering on specifics, there are some areas I cannot go into.
	The Secretary of State made it clear in the other place that the normal policing rules about recruitment will apply, including police and community support officers. The Statement I have just repeated makes it crystal clear that support for policing goes well beyond joining the Policing Board. I referred to paragraph 6 of the agreement, which is somewhat detailed; it has at least three or four bullet points.
	The date for Sinn Fein to make its own decisions is a matter for it. It is an independent political party, and it knows what needs to be done. In some ways there is a new deadline; 24 November is in statute, and we are not planning to change that, but we have said that we need the endorsement and agreement of all the parties by 10 November to give us time to pass an emergency Bill before the 24th. Anyone can work out, looking at what has to happen, that time is incredibly short. If agreement is not secured by then, the normal process legislated for by Parliament will take place: dissolution will occur at, I think, midnight on the 24th. That is the top and bottom of it.
	Regarding the Republic, I have nothing. I was not able to listen to all the comments in the other place, but, frankly, the elections and referendums referred to in our Statements relate to Northern Ireland. This is an issue for Northern Ireland. Obviously the Republic has its own views, but no one has discussed that. The point is that we need the parties to come back to us and talk about the best way of taking the people's voice. Clearly there is a view to take the people's voice, and there are only really two ways to do that: an election to a new Assembly, and everyone can see that there are pluses and minuses to that, or a referendum to get the agreement done. We need some discussion about that, and we do not want to foreclose any of the options.
	On the code of conduct, I take the point made by the noble Lord about the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. The code was not necessary in that Bill, but it is necessary now to look at it. We were always committed that if the parties came forward with an agreement about changes, it would be a matter for further discussion, and the preparation for Committee is the ideal place to do that. If there is common agreement on that, we said we would do the legislation required.
	On academic selection, the 11-plus will still be around for a bit. I think it goes in 2008; it is not as though we legislated to abolish it this year or next. If there is agreement by 10 November and the Assembly is restored by 26 March—that is, the powers are devolved—a decision to ban academic selection will be taken by the Assembly in a cross-community vote. If there is no agreement and no Assembly, the academic selection will remain banned, but it is up to the people of Northern Ireland. Our view is that we hope the 11-plus in its present form will go, but it is then up to the Assembly and local people to determine how best to have a transfer to secondary education. It is a matter for the parties.
	As for other legislation, we referred to the capping on rates, and we will do that if the process takes a form. However, the other processes that are in being—indeed, this House will have a Grand Committee on four orders next week, I think—will proceed as normal, as we have always said. The Assembly can take that up at the relevant time.
	It has consistently been made clear that there is absolutely no question of restorative justice being used as an alternative justice system. Once criminal justice and policing are devolved, the structure is a matter for discussion. I have nothing in my brief on that. I do not think any decisions have been taken, and there will have to be discussions. It is a matter for the parties to discuss and agree in the months ahead.
	The St Andrews agreement is the first time we have given the date of May 2008, the date that is in the Secretary of State's Statement. Parliament has a triple lock, if I remember rightly: a joint resolution by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, so there has to be agreement there; the Assembly; and Parliament has to agree as well. This cannot be done behind closed doors, nor just by one party. When we legislated in this House for the devolution of policing I remember saying there would have to be an assessment of how well the Assembly had been fulfilling its role and tasks. The view has been taken in the negotiations that if the Assembly is back by next March, we ought to be able to reach a decision by May 2008. That will be for the parties to discuss. If it is their view that it should have the same ministerial oversight as other departments, it will be for the First Minister and Deputy First Minister to set up the arrangements under, I believe, Section 17 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. If it is their view that it should have an alternative structure, it is a matter for the Assembly to legislate using the powers in the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act that we passed earlier this year.
	I appreciate the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, on the Prime Minister's activities. I am new to this, as people know, but by common consent he has devoted more hours and a greater proportion of his time as Prime Minister to this issue than any other. That is not to criticise any former Prime Minister. This has been a nightmare to deal with, and very difficult. As the Statement said, the Prime Minister has been involved in the detailed discussions at every stage of the process. The people around the table have understood that.

Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, I join others in wholeheartedly welcoming the agreement. I welcome also the efforts made by the Minister, his colleagues, the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach. When the Member for North Antrim, the Reverend Ian Paisley, becomes the First Minister in Northern Ireland, he will be entitled to the support of all parts of the community. Was it not always the case that when he and Gerry Adams sat down at a table together under this agreement, we would make progress in Northern Ireland?
	Can the Minister give the House any idea when the Ard Fheis is likely to be held to approve these proposals? Does he agree that unless the central issue of policing and the maintenance of law and order is addressed, and the rhetoric turned into reality, all the words will wither? Therefore, we need assurances about how to encourage members of the nationalist/republican community to join the Northern Ireland police service, to become involved and to do the things that were referred to today.

Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, I congratulate both Governments unreservedly for Friday's achievement in Scotland and for the contents of today's Statement. I got into trouble more than a decade ago for congratulating the leaders of Sinn Fein on their courage. I do not think that I shall get into any trouble at all today if I especially congratulate the right honourable gentleman for North Antrim, Dr Paisley, on his courage. Of all the 14 places where Robert the Bruce may have famously observed the stamina of the spider, the most favoured is Rathlin Island, off the north Antrim coast. Now we have further proof. When does the Minister think the most fruitful time would be for your Lordships' House to debate these historic matters?

Lord Glentoran: My Lords, I bring this amendment back on Report because we have no clarification and are nowhere near where I had hoped we would be in discussions with Her Majesty's Government. My objective is to try to persuade the Government to be clear about their intentions. The objective of the amendment is to persuade the Government to amend the firearms legislation so that it does not disadvantage UK competitors in small-bore/pistol shooting in forthcoming Olympic Games. I am sure that the Minister needs no reminder that training by all athletes for the 2012 Olympic Games has already started and is intense, vital and ongoing. As the law stands, pistol shooters and the like are at a significant disadvantage.
	I have two letters in front of me. I hope that I am allowed to have them, but if not, bad luck for the Government. The first was sent to my noble friend Lady Anelay by Simon King, who states:
	"The Government is committed to allowing pistol shooting events at the 2012 London Olympics. The Secretary of State already has sufficient powers under section 5 of the 1968 Firearms Act to authorise competitors and officials to possess competition pistols for the duration of the Games, and the special warm-up events. These powers were used successfully for the 2002 Commonwealth Games held in Manchester...The same powers could be used to allow a small number of potential medal winners to practise in Great Britain in advance of 2012".
	That is not what we are after—it really is not. It is a sensitive issue and great care is needed to ensure that public safety is not put at risk.
	Let us not go totally crazy—we finished talking about the IRA and so forth only half an hour ago. Legislating for professional people to have specialised weapons under a special regime will not possibly, in anyone's imagination, endanger anyone's life anywhere. It is not real thinking. I understand the political sensitivity and I can see that people are frightened. I regret to say that my party started this legislation some years ago. It has carried on, but it should not have done and I ask the Minister to rethink it.
	I am more concerned about a letter to Richard Caborn signed "pp Vernon Coaker". Its earlier paragraphs say more or less the same as the letter to my noble friend Lady Anelay, but the last paragraph says:
	"Whether or not we will use our section 5 powers to authorise such a scheme will ultimately be a matter of detail but I agree in principle that this should be explored further".
	I submit that the matter should be explored further and very quickly. A conclusion should be reached and the whole situation clarified. Frankly, as an Olympian and an athlete, and as one who cares about the medal tables in 2012, I think that bureaucratic stupidity is getting in the way of reality. I know that I am using strong words in your Lordships' House, but I feel strongly about the issue. Having talked to the Minister—I thank him for giving me his time—to Richard Caborn and to others, and having been received sympathetically, I think that it is time for the talking to stop and for the Government to come forward with a solution to this issue, which should not be difficult to dream up. I beg to move.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, the amendment would ensure that those engaged in airsoft activities could continue to do so in their current form. It would give them a defence to the offence of using a realistic imitation firearm. It would enable them to continue their sport only following regulations to be set out by the Secretary of State. The Government could thereby ensure that the sport was carried out only under safe and regulated conditions and that those weapons would not be available to those who might want to use them for illegal purposes.
	When I spoke to an amendment in Committee on 22 May at col. 623, the Minister said that the Government rejected it and that they believed that there was no compelling reason for airsofters to use realistic imitations. That is the very point at which airsofters and the Government diverge in their understanding of the sport. Airsofters have said to me that it is vital in skirmishing that they should be able to use realistic imitation weapons. In Committee, I put on record a detailed description of what constitutes the activity of airsoft. As this is Report, I shall certainly not go through that detail again, but I am very much aware that the activity is not well known to Members of Parliament in either House, so it took some while for a head of steam to work up and for noble Lords and Members of another place properly to appreciate how important the activity is to a substantial number of people in the United Kingdom.
	On 21 May, Mr Ken Elston, chairman of the United Kingdom Airsoft Site Governing Body, wrote a full submission to the Home Secretary, explaining why the exemption was necessary to save the sport. The response to that submission came from Mr Keith Bottomley of the Home Office firearms section, SC1. The letter is undated, but he restated the position set out by the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, in Committee, as follows:
	"In particular, no really convincing argument was put for the need to use such realistic imitation weapons for this purpose".
	The letter states that the Government see no real reason why airsofters cannot,
	"use brightly coloured translucent plastic weapons based on existing airsoft actions".
	It is quite a brief letter in response to a very well argued two-and-a-half page submission to the Home Office. Mr Elston has subsequently written to me to make the following cogent point: it remains a mystery to airsofters that groups who make only a limited use of airsoft equipment, such as historical battleground re-enactors, can qualify for exemption in the Bill, while the very people who are the recognised and legitimate users of airsoft equipment—airsoft players, who are members of registered clubs and who meet on a regular basis on registered, well regulated sites away from the general public under the auspices of a governing body—cannot.
	Prior to the Bill, airsofters were led to believethat the exemption clause was there to ensure that legitimate users would not be affected. The idea that translucent, brightly coloured weapons could be acceptable as an alternative or be in any way appropriate is, frankly, ridiculous. Photographs have been presented to me showing what the use of such translucent weapons would look like and it would not make it an activity in which people would want to continue to take part.
	Airsofters do not want their sport of skirmishing reduced to a childish game with bright yellow plastic weapons. That is how they put their view. For airsofters, it is and, they hope will always remain, an adult activity for the serious and committed participant. The activity used to be known as airsoft skirmishing, but due to the registration office accepting that the word "skirmishing" is protected and owned by the paintball company, airsoft has tended to alter the title of its game, but it remains an adult activity in which the realism of the equipment and weapons plays an essential part.
	There is also concern that the Government's provisions could end up assisting criminals and putting the police in danger. If a criminal were to decide to spray a real firearm fluorescent yellow so that it looked like an airsoft weapon, which the Government will allow to be used, that could place an armed officer in an invidious position. A moment of hesitation could cost the officer his or her life. Airsofters remain convinced that it is important to have clear legislation that provides a simple and workable exemption for genuine airsofters, so that they can carry on with their activity in the same responsible manner as they always have in the past. My amendment is designed to achieve that objective.
	I am aware that since I tabled this amendment way back in May, the Minister, Mr McNulty, has had meetings during the summer with the bodies representing airsofters. I am aware from discussion since then and letters written to me that the Government have been prepared to make a significant change in their stance—but not as far as writing something in the Bill, which we always believe is preferable. There may be a way to resolve the impasse between the airsofters and the Government that is acceptable to airsofters. In particular, I am aware of a letter written by Mr Tony McNulty on 19 September to Mr Tim Wyborn of the Association of British Airsoft, setting out just such an offer. If in his response, the Minister is able to indicate where the Government might move their position towards, I may be able to withdraw the amendment later. For the moment, I beg to move.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister. Mr Tim Wyborn said in advance of today that, if the Minister could put those words on record, airsofters could accept his offer of an exemption through regulations, although obviously that was the second-best option. I agree with the association that exemptions are always better in a Bill rather than in secondary legislation, in which one must prove that one is an honest person and a real airsofter.
	I am grateful, too, for the indication that the talks towards the end of October will go ahead. As one can imagine, airsofters have not taken part in parliamentary proceedings before, and have got on with their own business relatively quietly and very honestly and legitimately. They have had no reason to be within the ambit of parliamentary affairs, and were concerned that if the matters were not put clearly on record, they might not get the exemption later on when the regulations were formed. The Minister has made that offer clearly, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I support government Amendments Nos. 37 and 49 and I shall speak to my Amendment No. 38. It is right that one should increase the maximum sentence for the,
	"offence of having article with blade or point in public place",
	without good reason from two to four years. I hope that it may provide a stronger deterrent to those who might consider carrying a knife in a public place. I also hope that it will send a message to the victims of crime that Parliament has expressed its will that such an offence should be treated with the utmost gravity. The need for such an amendment becomes all the more apparent when one considers the sentencing powers of the courts in relation to a similar offence—possession of an offensive weapon—under the Prevention of Crime Act 1953. That offence carries a maximum penalty of four years. Given the rise in knife crime, we felt that the time had come to consider whether the offence of carrying a bladed article merited a greater sentence as a maximum than that available under the 1953 Act.
	When we debated this matter in Committee, the Minister responded by saying that he shared my concern about the incidence of knife crime but that the Government's view was that the best way to deal with sentencing was through the Sentencing Guidelines Council. He indicated that the forthcoming Sentencing Guidelines Council guideline on assaults would,
	"reiterate that use of a weapon increases the seriousness of violent crime",—[Official Report, 22/5/06; col. 631.]
	and that the sentence should be increased to reflect that.
	At that stage, I had tabled a probing amendment for Committee which would increase the maximum penalty to five years. I reflected on the Minister's response and, of course, I naturally value the work of the Sentencing Guidelines Council. But I remained of the view that it was the right time to signal disquiet about the increasing use of knives by increasing the maximum sentence that might be available to the courts. Since then, I am afraid the reports of knife crime have continued to alarm me and other Members of this House. It is on the increase. Recent reports have suggested that in some parts of the country it has risen by as much as 90 per cent inthe past two years. Perhaps the most worrying trend is the increase in the carriage and use of knives by young people, including, from a personal viewpoint, reports that carriage of knives by young girls is as much as by young men.
	On 25 May, I therefore tabled a series of amendments to give the Government a "pick-and-mix" opportunity to say whether they would raise the maximum sentence to three, four or five years. Of course, I was pleased to read in the newspapers this summer that the Home Secretary was minded to accept my amendment and set it at four years. I thought that perhaps for this one occasion the Government would manage to accept an Opposition amendment. But, nae, they found a way of saying, yet again, that they agreed with me, but that my amendment was defective. This Government are so resourceful when it comes to wriggling out of saying that the Conservative Party has got something right. So they found a way of ensuring that their amendment comes forward. However, I agree with them. It is right not only to raise the maximum penalty to four years but also to ensure that penalties—I give way to my noble friend.

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, inadvertently I have skipped a group and spoken to Amendment No. 42 when moving Amendment No. 39. I apologise to the House. I must say that I was confused myself because I had thought that my speaking notes were rather longer. I shall now speak to the right amendments.
	This group of amendments covers slightly different subject matter, although it is not unrelated to the amendment I have just addressed. I shall move government Amendment No. 39 and speak to Amendments Nos. 44, 46, 48 and 52. In doing so I shall also resist opposition Amendments Nos. 41, 43, 45 and 47. I hope that that clarifies the position.
	Amendment No. 41 seeks to remove the proposed power to generally authorise staff to search for weapons in a school. It is important to have a power to authorise generally as it would allow staff, once generally authorised to search, to act immediately when they suspect there is a concealed weapon. Without general authorisation, staff or pupils could be at risk if staff suspected that there was a weapon while the head or deputy head teacher could not be contacted for any reason. Amendments Nos. 43, 45 and 47 require the relevant Secretaries of State to issue guidance and suggest that the guidance may in particular refer to training and information on paying compensation. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Skills already has plans to issue guidance for schools, while my department will issue guidance for attendance centres. Further education institutions will be able to make use of the guidance for schools. We will consult fully on the draft guidance, which will include advice on staff training and employers' duties to take reasonable steps to keep staff members safe, as well as having insurance to cover any liability for injury in the course of their employment. It is therefore not necessary to put a duty on the Secretary of State to issue guidance, nor is it necessary to suggest the contents of such guidance. In those terms, I hope that the noble Baroness will not press her amendments.
	Government Amendments Nos. 39, 44 and 46 relate to the power to search for knives or offensive weapons in schools, colleges and attendance centres respectively at Clauses 42, 43 and 44. By changing the grounds for a search from "reasonable grounds for believing" to "reasonable grounds for suspecting", we will broaden the scope of searches to include a wider range of people. It is important to do this for two reasons. First, head teachers have told my noble friend the Schools Minister that they sometimes suspect that a knife is in the school, but that the information is not strong enough for believing that a particular pupil has it. This amendment would enable a search in those cases where a member of staff has reasonable grounds for suspecting that the particular pupil has the knife.
	Secondly, we want to do all we can to counter any possible accusation that staff have performed a search without sufficient grounds. Lowering the grounds from belief to suspicion makes such accusations less likely to arise and less likely to succeed. We also take the view that suspicion of a weapon in the school allows a search to move outwards, starting perhaps with those pupils who are said by other pupils to be carrying a knife, or pupils who have been trying to hide something. If nothing is found on them, the search can move on to those who tend to act as willing minders of illicit items, or are easily bullied into being unwilling minders. Staff often have a clear picture of such dynamics among their pupils. The search can then broaden to pupils in the same class year or in the same neighbourhood. That increases the chances of finding a knife that is suspected to be somewhere and could enable a school to search quite a large proportion of its pupils. However, before searching any pupil, there must always be a reasonable suspicion that the individual may have the knife. While safeguarding the rights of individual pupils being searched, we also want to protect all pupils and staff from the risk of or threat of violence, so we want to give schools and others as much discretion as possible where a knife might be on the premises.
	Attendance centres provide group-based sessions for offenders aged between 10 and 25. These offenders have been sent to such centres by the courts for offences which include the use of violence and the possession of knives or offensive weapons. Widening the grounds to search from "reasonable grounds for believing" to "reasonable grounds for suspecting" will ensure that designated attendance centre staff are able to act upon intelligence to search individuals and will ensure that all staff and attendees are afforded the proper protection from knives and offensive weapons. We recognise that few incidents of attendees carrying offensive weapons have been reported over the past two years. However, we believe that this power should be available to staff if they so choose to use it, and that it should offer the most realistic test by which they would be able to initiate a search. The clause offers appropriate safeguards and authorisation of search criteria.
	Through government Amendments Nos. 48 and 52, we are seeking to reduce the threshold for a constable to exercise his or her powers of entry and search in Section 139B of the Criminal Justice Act 1988. This section currently enables an officer to exercise those powers provided that he or she has reasonable grounds for believing that a person on the school premises has a knife or offensive weapon with them. As indicated above, we consider that this presents a threshold which is not in proportion to the nature of the problem and the potential consequences that might arise from it. Therefore, we propose revising that threshold to one of reasonable grounds for "suspecting" to ensure that the police power to search in schools is consistent with that of school staff. Guidance will be produced by the Department for Education and Skills in consultation with the Home Office, the police and other key stakeholders. This will contain pointers which schools could take into account when considering whether a search is justified on the grounds of reasonable suspicion, together with advice on the way in which the power should be applied.
	I also take this opportunity to refer noble Lords to a closely related matter regarding the Written Statement made earlier by my noble friend the Schools Minister about the non-contact or minimal contact screening of pupils and others for weapons. Such screening involves the use of metal detectors contained in walk-through arches or handheld wands. Screening can be carried out on all pupils provided it is carried out in a way that respects people's privacy. If screening indicates that a weapon may be present, school staff could then call the police or use the new power included in the Bill to carry out a hands-on search. The guidance I have referred to will include good practice advice on screening. The power to screen pupils, as recently clarified by the DfES legal advisers, is enabled by education law giving head teachers the power to make school rules relating to behaviour and discipline as a condition of entry. I beg to move.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I speak to my Amendments Nos. 41, 43, 45 and 47. They are all probing amendments and, naturally, I indicate at this stage that I support the government amendments. We had a full debate on these issues in Committee on22 May, at cols. 636 to 642 of the Official Report—which shows how full the discussion was. I return to the fray merely to ask for clarification on two matters.
	The first issue concerns the safety of staff in schools. Amendments Nos. 43, 45 and 47 require the Secretary of State to issue guidelines on the carrying out of searches. The Minister has tried to assuage me as to why my amendments are not necessary, but I am trying to find out what happens if a member of staff is injured in the course of his or her duty in carrying out a search. In the real world, it is unlikely that a student who carries a knife for the wrong reason will simply say, when challenged by a member of staff, "Well, yes, fine, Mr Smith"—or Mrs Smith—"here is my knife. Please do take it". On a day-to-day basis, when implementing the provisions of the Bill, the staff could face serious injury.
	The Minister says that regulations will lay out best practice from the point of view of training and that insurance policies should therefore pay up. I want to ensure that there is no reason for anything to be paid in compensation, because there should be no injury in the first place. I am trying to find out what discussions the Government have had with teaching unions and head teachers on this matter and how the provisions will be put into effect in such a way that school life is not disrupted and certainly so that teachers are not put at risk. Although I raised these questions in passing on 22 May, I have not received any response over the summer.
	The second issue I addressed was whether a general search was to be implemented or whether it would be a search specific to an individual category. I asked the Government in Committee what their intentions were. I am certainly content that a head teacher should be able to authorise staff in general to carry out searches; in other words, they should be able to say that all staff are trained, competent and able to carry out searches. However, my concern was whether it was right then to give a general power to search; that is, not only that any member of staff can search but that any member of staff can search any person within the school regardless of whether it was reasonably thought that they could be carrying knives.
	Amendment No. 41 tries to address that issue. I think the Government, by strengthening the power of search, has clarified the position I was trying to get at in Committee. The Minister said that the term will now be "suspecting" rather than "believing", and I do not find that substitution objectionable. As I understand it, it is a commonly enough used and understood term in the criminal law and it seems appropriate to use the word "suspecting" rather than "believing" within the context of these clauses. So by a side wind, by tabling Amendment No. 41, the Government have resolved the concerns that I had in the amendments I tabled both in Committee and on Report. For those reasons, I not only support the government amendments but will not be moving my own amendments when we reach them.

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her support for our amendments. She raises important issues about school staff searching pupils and being at physical risk or danger because of the search. We cannot be entirely risk adverse—that is a fairly obvious comment—and if the head teacher decides that a search is not safe the school will probably wish to call the police to conduct it. That said, school staff—especially senior managers—these days are highly skilled and experienced in managing the behaviour of young people in their charge. From the feedback that I get from my children as they go through school, I have always been very impressed by how capable teachers are at resolving and avoiding confrontations. I think that the guidance we issue, the training given and the support provided will help raise that performance still higher. In so doing it should minimise the degree of physical risk or danger that otherwise might be present. Staff should search only if they are properly trained and judge it safe to do so, and they must, of course, be authorised to do so by the head teacher. Otherwise we always clearly advise staff that they should involve the police, and that advice which was given in the past still stands.
	The noble Baroness asked about the attitudes of staff, the unions and so on. This matter has been the subject of considerable discussion with the unions. Indeed, I understand that there have been discussions with the head teacher and teacher unions both today and previously. The unions are broadly content. Indeed, I have quotes from unions in my brief which state that the NASUWT has welcomed the provisions of the Violent Crime Reduction Bill designed to give more support to teachers and head teachers in maintaining good order and discipline by enabling searches to be conducted for offensive weapons. It is sensible and logical for such powers to apply to groups of pupils and not just individuals. And the ASCL, in the form of John Dunford, has put on record the following:
	"There are few more difficult or more serious issues for a head teacher to deal with than pupils carrying knives. I therefore welcome the increased powers for heads to search for knives. This will be helpful to the small number of schools where this is a recurrent problem".
	So there is generally a welcome there.
	The noble Baroness herself raised and dealt with the issue of the process to be gone through in conducting searches—the point at which the search should begin and how it should work proceed from there—based on the rephrasing of the Bill. We have reached a happy point with regard to these amendments and I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her support.

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: My Lords, we on these Benches also support the order, but I have two or three short and simple questions. Ironically, the original proposals for the introduction of the lump sum payment were contained in the Government's Green Paper Simplicity, security and choice. Sadly, they have not proved simple enough for the Department for Work and Pensions to get them right first time.
	How was the oversight or lacuna, as I gather it is now called, spotted? As one of probably not all that many people who did Latin and learnt what a lacuna was, I suggest that "gap" or "hole" are perfectly good words that it might do no harm to use in future. In any case, why did it take two years to come to light? For my own information, why is equivalent provision for Northern Ireland made by statutory rules, while it is done by order for Great Britain?
	Finally, and perhaps more significantly, this will be uprated in line with the retail prices index. Will the Minister take on board the fact that the retail prices index is proving a very unreliable measure of the real cost of living as it affects pensioners? Essentials such as housing, fuel and light in particular are now rising in price much faster than the general retail price index. Indeed, I estimate that for the average pensioner the cost of living has risen something like6 per cent over the past year, which means that if we just stick to the retail price index uprating it will be a real cut in the standard of living for the average pensioner. Could he comment on that, as it is also relevant to this order?

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I am grateful for the overwhelming support that I have received tonight for this order. In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, we think that very few people are likely to be involved, if any, but we are enabled to make extra-statutory payments to any person affected, and the change that the order will make will enable us to ensure that that cannot occur in future. So we hope that no one has been affected, although the sum involved is of course relatively minor.
	I did prefer the word "lacuna", although I had to give up Latin after one year due to not being very good at it. In the course of the work of officials in the DWP, the oversight was identified, which is why the order was brought here today. Noble Lords will know that I have taken a lot of Bills through this House, though not a pensions Bill, and I have had considerable contact with officials who have dealt with pension legislation, so I can say that they are a first-rate group of people who are extremely thorough. Clearly it is regrettable that this oversight occurred, and we need to do everything to ensure that oversights are sorted out before legislation is brought to the House. I have no hesitation in accepting the responsibility of ensuring that that is to happen.
	The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, made rather more general points about the complexity of pension legislation, and implied that because it is so complex mistakes are more likely to happen. There is no question that pension legislation is very complex. Something that I have discovered in the work of the Department for Work and Pensions in relation to not only pensions but benefit legislation is that there will clearly always be a trade-off between simplicity and fairness. One reason why the existing state pension legislation is extremely complex is because of a wish to make changes to the state pension system that are equitable, to meet social obligations. For that, additional rules are often introduced. The graduated retirement pension benefit is a case in point, owing to its preserved nature.
	I would always want to see the legislation simplified—and, as I can tell the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, we are continuing to work on that matter. But the key outcome is not so much to the legislation but in helping the public to understand the rules and trying to ensure that they are as simple as possible. I hope that one outcome of the pension White Paper following the Turner commission leading to legislation will be a system that the public understand much more clearly than the current system. When simplification in the law can help that, we need to look at that—and we shall continue to do so. The efforts that my department has made to provide statements to members of the public who are coming closer to receiving their state pension have been extremely helpful, and clearly we need to build on that. It is also clear that in relation to deferral or the potential receipt of a lump sum as a result of the changes made in the 2004 Act, a considerable effort has been put into advertising through leaflets and phone lines the availability of this option to the public. Again, I accept that we need to do better in future and shall continue our efforts to ensure that the benefit of this change is made known to as many potential recipients as possible.
	As for Northern Ireland, my understanding is that the reason why it is being treated in this way is the suspension of Stormont. Let us hope that we see progress in that area.
	Finally, I do not think it is the first time that the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, has raised the matter of the RPI with me. We are following current practice. At this stage we have no plans to change it, but we will keep the matter under review.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, the order amends the Agricultural Holdings Act 1986 and the Agricultural Tenancies Act 1995. The amendments will foster tenant farmer diversification; give tenants and landlords greater flexibility to come to their own agreements; ensure decisions on restructuring are business-led; improve the viability of the tenanted sector; maintain the balance between landlord and tenant interests; and enable landlords and tenants to adapt to the agricultural climate of the 21st century. The amendments were developed in collaboration with the Tenancy Reform Industry Group—TRIG—and the proposals have cross-industry support.
	Article 5 removes the barrier to tenant farmer participation in diversified activities by amending the criteria for the "livelihood test" for succession to a tenancy. Articles 6 and 8 ensure no loss of compensation or disruption to the rent review cycle when adding to or removing land from a holding, provided that the new holding forms a substantial part of the old holding. Articles 7, 9 and 10 replace the arbitration procedures in the Agricultural Holdings Act 1986 with the procedures in the Arbitration Act 1996 in line with the Agricultural Tenancies Act 1995.
	Article 12 also relates to the 1995 Act. It clarifies provisions that have confused industry and professionals since the introduction of the 1995 Act on circumstances in which the 1986 Act continues to apply. It encourages restructuring by introducing new provision to allow parties to agree in writing that, when a tenant holds a 1986 Act tenancy, the 1986 Act will apply, provided that the old holding is a whole or substantial part of the new holding.
	Article 13 gives landlords and tenants freedom to set their own maximum notice period for a farm business tenancy and retains the protection of the 12-month minimum notice period. Articles 14 and 15 give landlords and tenants greater freedom to reach agreement on rent reviews. Articles 16 and 17 make it easier for landlords and tenants with farm business tenancies to reach agreement on improvements to a holding by providing an option to agree a maximum limit for the end-of-tenancy compensation.
	The order will promote a healthy and competitive tenanted sector without removing tenant protection or disrupting the landlord/tenant balance. The Government have given commitments to monitor the effectiveness of the regulatory reform order, particularly in relation to the impact on tenant farmer diversification, and to keep under review whether future legislative measures might be necessary. I am happy to repeat that commitment here, but I cannot be precise about how it will be done, as changes are always being made to the scope and level of surveys that we undertake. We will carry out this commitment through our close links with industry and the Tenancy Reform Industry Group and through analysis of available statistics and research.
	On behalf of the Government, I thank the members of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee for confirming that the present proposals are appropriate to be made under the Regulatory Reform Act 2001, and for recommending them to the House. The committee in another place has also considered these proposals. It concluded that they remove burdens within the meaning of the Regulatory Reform Act 2001 without removing any necessary protections or preventing the exercise of any existing rights or freedoms. Both committees have unanimously recommended that the order be approved. I beg to move.
	Moved, That the draft regulatory reform order laid before the House on 5 July be approved [24th Report from the Regulatory Reform Committee].

Baroness Byford: My Lords, I thank the Minister for bringing this order before us today. My only disappointment, and I am sure his as well, is that we could not get it in before the Recess. We did try, but I that think time in another place precluded it. One or two of the tenancy agreements have come up, so there has been a delay, but I thank him for explaining it.
	I have one query from the point of view of the NFU and then I have one or two directly. The Tenancy Reform Industry Group took its bearing back in November 2002 and reported its recommendations in June 2003. This coincided with the CAP reforms, and the recommendations were made without the benefit of knowing the detailed implication of those reforms. Defra then took a long while to get the RRO drafted, missing, as I have just said, the autumn slot. Although this order is welcome, there may well be some more desirable adjustments to be made in agricultural tenancy law to take account of changes within the CAP. Perhaps the Minister could clarify that. It would be helpful if we could get an assurance that the Government will look sympathetically on any further recommendations that the industry may wish to bring forward in the future. I do not think that that is controversial; it is plain common sense.
	We welcome this order. We are particularly pleased that the Government have responded to the way in which farming has changed in recent years, including contracting and other activities that are carried out on the holding. The Minister has, rightly, explained to us tonight that there had been confusion among the industry professionals and practitioners over whether Section 4(1)(f) of the 1995 Act applies only narrowly. I think that I have understood from what he said that that is not true. I hope that I am correct. Hansard records of the debates during the passage of the Agricultural Tenancies Bill suggest that the then Government's intention was that the provisions would apply narrowly where parties had unwittingly surrendered the status under the 1986 Act.
	The effect of the legislation is that when a landlord is asked by a tenant to give his consent to an improvement on the holding, he has no means of knowing the extent of that liability at the end of the tenancy. That could mean that some landlords are reluctant to give their consent to a tenant's proposals simply because they do not know how much compensation they will be required to pay. Will the Minister comment on that?
	I turn to the amendment to the provisions on notices to quit in the 1995 Act. Under that Act, a notice to terminate a farm business tenancy must be given in writing at least 12 months, but not more than 24 months, before the date on which it is to take effect. The current legislation prevents landlords and tenants from agreeing to a longer notice period than 24 months. There is therefore no flexibility to agree a notice period of, say, up to five years, which would give both landlords and tenants greater security and enable long-term planning. That is a small issue, but again I would be grateful for some comment.
	On the timing of consent, when the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, was the Minister responsible for these tenancies, he promised to monitor the responses of landlords when faced with requests from tenants for renewed consent. He suggested that if the Government had evidence that landlords were reluctant to grant consent, they would consider what further measures were necessary. It would be enormously helpful if the Minister were to reiterate those comments on the Floor.
	Finally, I turn to fiscal change. In order not to perpetuate a disincentive for landlords to grant tenants consent to diversify, all land, including buildings, let by a landlord under the 1986 Agricultural Holdings Act or the 1995 Agricultural Tenancies Act should be added directly to the definition of "agricultural property" for inheritance tax agricultural property relief to the extent that it is used for business purposes under consent from the landlord. Agricultural landlords should be able to defer payment of capital gains tax on gains to the extent that they are used to make improvements that increase the economic value of the land subject to agricultural tenancies that are used for business purposes. The business asset taper relief from capital gains should be available to all let land for business purposes, irrespective of the business of the occupier. Again, I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify that.
	While we welcome this order, I have raised one or two specific issues, and would be grateful if the Minister responded to them. We hope that the order will make it much easier for those who have tenancies to get on and diversify and make a little bit more money than they have been able to in the past, and at the same time give landlords a certain amount of security, which they also need.

On Question, Motion agreed to.
	[The Sitting was suspended from 8.22 to 8.39 pm.]

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I will agree to send the noble Baroness and other noble Lords who have contributed to our debates a notice of what practice and guidance is currently offered. I take the point about Clause 15 and the extension of fixed-penalty notices, and I have no doubt that that is already under active consideration. I will ensure that her comments are drawn to the attention of the appropriate Ministers and I will endeavour to return to her with more details.

Baroness O'Cathain: My Lords, about a fortnight ago, I was telephoned by my noble friend Lady Miller of Hendon who described to me in great detail the content of this amendment. She also told me that there was a problem in her family and that she might not be able to speak to it. Sadly, her mother died last Thursday night, so she is in a period of mourning and has asked me to move this amendment, which I gladly do. I know that I will not be able to move it in as good a manner as Lady Miller, but I shall do my best.
	The purpose of this amendment is to make it an offence to wear or carry a mask at any public assembly, procession, rally or meeting, with certain defined exceptions. Before I explain the simple but detailed provisions of this amendment, I would like to remind your Lordships of the historical background. In the distant past, even when a public protest degenerated and violence occurred, the precipitators, including the leaders, did not hide their faces. I remember seeing reruns of the newsreels of the anti-fascist riots in the East End of London in the late 1930s in which every face was clearly visible. If we fast-forward 50 years to the 1980s, the Grunwick dispute generated a fair amount of intimidating behaviour, but the faces in the newsreels were clearly visible. During the coalminers' strike, which was particularly violent, the faces of the leaders and the men involved were clearly visible. Indeed, Arthur Scargill, the miners' leader, complained that the police singled him out and hit him over the head with a riot shield.
	However, in the 1980s, there was a significant change of behaviour at protests. I think it goes back to the poll tax protests. I have a recollection of a picture of a masked protestor heaving a scaffold pole through the window of a parked car. At riots in the north of England in the early 2000s, masked rioters were a feature. We have now seen them at anti-war demonstrations, animal rights protests, including the violent campaign against Huntingdon Life Sciences, anti-globalisation demonstrations, anti-hunting and pro-hunting protests and at protests about the Danish cartoons and the Pope's recent comments about Islam.
	That incomplete list of events is not confined to any one group or political outlook. Each of these demonstrations generating different degrees of violence featured some participants whose faces were hidden. In some cases, the apparent ringleaders could be seen speaking into walkie-talkies or on mobile phones, presumably giving instructions to their troops. Quite often, the organisers of the event would complain that their peaceful protest had been hijacked by outsiders bent on trouble—the usual suspects from rent-a-mob and agit-prop. I have newspaper photographs of masked rioters who broke into the Foreign Office in 1997. On 14 April 1997, the Daily Telegraph reported that the organisers complained that:
	"The protest march was hijacked by anarchists and left-wing hooligans".
	On 15 December 1997, the Daily Mail captioned a photograph:
	"Hooded mob strike with iron bars and baseball bats".
	Not only is any violence in any circumstances in a public protest totally unacceptable, it is improper that the police should be unable to identify the perpetrators to enable them to be arrested there and then or, perhaps, at a later time when tempers have cooled. A rather futile attempt to solve the problem of masked rioters was made in the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, which gave the police power to require a person to remove any item which the officer was satisfied was being worn wholly or mainly to conceal the wearer's identity. I say that that attempt was rather futile because in the riot in the City of London on 18 June 1999, damage worth some£2 million was done, some by persons who had been given £30 each, free transport and packed lunches. According the written replies given to my noble friend Lady Miller by the late-lamented Lord Williams of Mostyn, despite the huge amount of criminality at that event, a mere seven items were seized by the police from individuals, none of whom was arrested. In fact, no arrests were made under the provisions of that Act at that event.
	I turn to the details of the amendment. Subsection (1) makes it an offence to wear or carry a mask or other form of disguise at any public assembly of various sorts. The mere carrying of a mask is an offence, because otherwise someone could simply whip it off and put it in his pocket as the police approached him. The wording of the subsection, including the penalties and the onus of proof, follows the wording of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 and various subsequent offensive weapons Acts that have been on the statute book for more than 50 years, which the police regard as an effective tool not only for charging wrongdoers but for heading off crimes before they happen.
	Subsection (2) provides for what may be regarded as necessary exceptions to the strict rule: the practice of sports fans painting their faces with their team colours; masks worn at carnivals or fancy dress events; and veils and similar garments worn by women for religious reasons. Subsection (1) also provides for a person to establish that he or she has a reasonable excuse. Perhaps a person has some facial disfigurement or is shielding him or herself from the weather. Those are all possibilities, but those issues could be decided by the courts. Whether sunglasses are a disguise is also a fact to be decided by the court. That may not be too difficult if the alleged offence occurred on a dull winter day, but I am aware that the fashionistas believe that shades, as they are called, are hugely attractive and appealing and wear them even on the darkest nights.
	At the risk of incurring the wrath of my friends, I believe that the same applies to hoodies. That gave the Government some difficulty when Earl Carnarvon—again, late and lamented—raised an amendment to the Crime and Disorder Bill in 1998 with similar intent. The new clause provides that balaclava helmets, ski masks and motor cycle helmets worn by pedestrians, which are the disguises of choice of rioters, shall be regarded as disguises if the court or jury concludes that that is why they were being worn or carried. The police and security forces are exempted from the operation of the new clause in the same way as they are exempted in the various offensive weapons Acts.
	Subsection (5) defines public processions, public assemblies and public meetings in the terms of the established definitions in the Public Order Act 1986. In accordance with the precedents of similar Acts, the amendment does not apply to Northern Ireland, which already has its own legislation on the subject. In the debate on Lord Carnarvon's amendment in Committee on 31 March 1998, Lord Williams of Mostyn said that the government were "warming" to the idea. Eight years on, the time has come to do something practical about it. If he was warming to the idea then, I am sure that he would have been fully supportive now.
	The amendment does not in any way inhibit the right to hold a peaceful—I stress the word peaceful—protest, rally or procession. That is a right that we all support, even when we fundamentally do not support its objectives. The amendment places an effective weapon in the hands of the police that will severely discourage ill-disposed persons from mischief. If it does not, it will enable the police to arrest them on the spot and charge them with a substantive offence. I beg to move.

Lord Addington: My Lords, I shall briefly add my words of support for the amendment moved so ably by the noble Lord, Lord Pendry. We are talking here about correcting one of the cock-ups of history. The initial Act was not supposed to get into this field at all. It was brought forward in an atmosphere dominated by stories about organised crime starting to get into the bouncer industry, leading to conflict and violence with people wanting to use facilities. That is the background. The Act then swept up huge bodies of groups who did not have any problems.
	The Government have an opportunity to put their hands up on behalf of Government as a whole and say, "Occasionally things go wrong, but we will address them". If they can do that today, they will be doing everyone involved in the legislative process a favour. We will always make mistakes, but if we set the precedent of correcting them when they are identified we will save a lot of time, and I hope that next time we will do it a little quicker.